Joey TPA - Graffiti Artist Interview

January 2009

In depth interview with Joey TPA, a graffiti wiriter who began making his mark on the streets of New York in 1972 and went on to become one of the founding members of the infamous TPA Crew (The Public Animals) which has grown to be one of the largest and longest running crews in graffiti history.

How old are you?

You don't waste a sec, do you? I attended the Worlds Fair in Queens NYC as a kid in 1964 - look it up and do the math, it was previously held in 1893 (not a misprint) in Chicago. Check out some kick-ass photos and read and see some awesome memorabilia. Make sure you check out the monorails, they were totally "Jetsons"… hard to believe it real unless you were there.

Where are you based?

Born in Gunsmoke, Brooklyn, NYC - and currently reside in Chicago, another big U.S. city… and I go to wherever my online travel agent gives me the best prices. Ya dig?

I finally decided to stop doing "illegal" stuff about 1982, still before most of today's heavy hitters were swimming around aimlessly in their Daddy's nut-sack.

Joey TPA

When did you begin practicing graffiti writing and for how long did you continue?

He he he… I started writing on mailboxes, buses, light poles, phone booths, fire-alarm boxes and park benches in 1972, probably before most of your readers were born and I practiced forever. I finally decided to stop doing "illegal" stuff about 1982, still before most of today's heavy hitters were swimming around aimlessly in their Daddy's nut-sack.

How did you get into graffiti writing and what made you begin painting?

I was influenced by seeing the early NYC gangs like The Black Spades, The Savage Skulls, The Savage Nomads, The Vampires, The Dragons, The Egyptian Kings, and many more which were all making their marks at the time. These crews would lay out their territories by wearing their colors and occasionally ciphering on the walls, but not as much as nowadays. It wasn't the gang lifestyle that attracted me though; it was the spray paint on the wall. Putting a name, crew or some sort of moniker there is the same as when an animal marks a tree with its claws… it's territorial and absolute.

When you began writing graffiti in the 70's whom did you see as the pioneers of the scene?

I could spend an hour on this and it still wouldn't be fair. I'm sure you always hear the obvious names, so let me see if I can give you 10 to 20 names that are under-rated, but with just as much impact. I'm sure the guys you always hear about will concur that this list is fair. Here goes: 10 to 20 writers, females included, that pioneered:

• Steve-61
• Ace-137
• Turok
• Cay 161
• Tree 127
• Spencer-1
• Piper-1
• Lazar
• Sexy-158
• Annie-163
• B-1
• Peace-108
• Sweet Duke
• Barmaid-36
• C.A.T. 187
• Bluebeard-183
• Duke-9
• Jec*
• SJK-171
• Mingo-1
• Moses-147
• Lil' Satan
• Shorty-135
• Rex183
• Force-5

I really loved seeing the variety of names back in the early 70's when I had just started out. By 1976, when I had moved on from walls and had begun hitting the trains, these writers and pioneers were already going at it full steam or had already quit.

Here's some evidence of what I am talking about…

Where did you paint your first piece?

Shit… I can't remember, but it had to be a wall and not a train. Probably on a warehouse or a bus depot somewhere. I think I was workin' a Woody-Woodpecker.

How would you describe your style?

Personally, I'm free. I have no affiliations to any one thing or style - I try to give everything a chance and I basically live that way, pretty much open-minded. As far as graffiti writing, I got very creative on paper and was good enough to run with some, but on trains, it was more about volume. In that respect it was more of the throw-ups, occasionally a burner with some now-primitive additions like flames, cracks, 3D, shadows, or comic-style embellishments. I was more of a background guy, trying to make up for my average lettering skills with scenes and embellishments.

Apart from Joey did you write under any other names?

Yes…

• Presto
• Joey TC
• Joe-188
• Rocket-3 (RC-3)
• Sporm-88

…and way back in the early 70's:

• Lil' Mouse
• Lil' Titan
• Lil' Joe

You were one of the founding members of the TPA Crew (The Public Animals) which since its creation in 1976 has now grown to be one of the largest and longest running crews in graf history. How did the TPA Crew begin and how did it grow in to the worldwide phenomenon it is today?

It was a triumvirate of 3 kids - Vade, M3 and me, Joe-188, with some initial support from a few other cats locally in Queens, NY where it was founded. Eventually, I took it to Brooklyn, Manhattan and Staten Island while the other two partners took it to the Bronx and Long Island. The worldwide thing is a result of me traveling about locally or by plane to various countries and U.S. states. I maintain those contacts over the phone or email. I also use social programs like myspace and facebook. Back then, you didn't have these cool tools; it was all long distance phone calls. Airline flights were out. Communication either cost a fortune or in many cases, just didn't exist at all.

Some peeps can't get out of the past, but actually, that's what limits them and eventually kills them. You can't stop progress.

I want to mention to all the young peeps and even the older ones reading this that the truth is that you can't just get an education in any kind of history by excluding people. We have the opportunity today to use technology to expand knowledge and awareness.

I'm dissatisfied when I hear up-and-comers and even oldsters embrace the same canon as in the beginning, embracing crew wars and all that crap. That's a waste of time. I guess it's human nature and not just a graffiti problem. Enjoy your time, because one day it will be someone else's history.

Joey TPA

TPA is used to educate those who want to teach and by those who want to learn. I apologize to those who disagree with the direction TPA has taken, but they don't understand that knowledge can be delivered in alternative ways to better serve students who don't always have access to the traditional methods which may not even be tailored to their needs. It's time to stop asking those who want to learn to adapt to the old ways. Instead, it's time to adapt the methodology to the current need of individuals who want to be a part of growing something stronger. This can be accomplished while still preserving the historical values that intrigued them in the first place.

I'm dissatisfied when I hear up-and-comers and even oldsters embrace the same canon as in the beginning, embracing crew wars and all that crap. That's a waste of time. I guess it's human nature and not just a graffiti problem. Enjoy your time, because one day it will be someone else's history. Make it count.

The most over-used expression is "old school"… ugh… I have an aversion to that term because time itself is relative. There's really one "old school" and it was the day when the writers born in the late 50's were coming out of the early 60's and the revolution was on the verge of explosion. All this other history simply followed and in turn, added greater and greater depth to the basics. Today, it seems every European writer has this notion that "old school" means something that came out of the 80's. I find that cute because all the writers I named above were already grandparents by the time the 80's rolled around.

Even the American writers today are short on their history; to them, anything that counts as "old school" dates back from 1985. I can relate to that though, because the 80's is when it (graffiti) came off the trains and into the galleries thanks to some smart people like Ahearn and Chalfant who publicized the culture. That was a true milestone in the history of graffiti and that's why the writers today understandably look at that period (the mid 80's) as the basis for historical reference. It's because graffiti had finally hit the media. Hugo Martinez made a similar go of it in the 70's and the smart writers who had a vision used his generosity wisely, but Hugo was a little too early and "ahead of his time" if I may say so. The moment wasn't right and the public wasn't ready to glorify an art form that was basically destroying the establishment's view of acceptable standards in mass transit amid the remnants of social upheaval in the 70's. I think its only fair to include Kurlansky / Naar / Mailer and Praeger Publishing who published "The Faith of Graffiti" in 1974.

Commuters were getting on trains that were literally rolling autograph books. That was found to be offensive and an invasion of personal space. That's what made it stand out though, it was a non-violent, often pesky and interpretive incursion.

How did the TPA go about recruiting new members, particularly writers from other countries? Did you or your fellow crew members have to meet artists personally and work on pieces together before they become accepted?

I answered the first part of your question above. I don't paint anymore and but I can readily review examples of peoples' work easily on the web. Recruiting is more about someone's character. It was back then also, but nowadays it's easier to see a whole portfolio of work spanning 20 years in 20 minutes via an internet photo album. Back then it was more a local NYC thing, we were connected by trains and buses and occasionally dropped a dime to stay in touch. Believe it or not, we had these things called pay-phones" 2 nickels.

Having been the founding member of a crew do you think you preferred writing as a solo artist or as part of a crew?

Always as part of the crew. It was brotherhood and although I did enjoy many times on my own I always liked being with my boys. Believe it or not, most of our time together was non-graffiti oriented. Writing was a life-style, but not the absolute end-all. We knew there was something outside of that.

Does becoming part of a crew bring with it any certain rules or restrictions that need to be followed?

It brings good things and it brings painful things. Remember - we never had to become part of a crew, because we were the crew. It's was different for those that followed us, but by that time, we 3 had become dispersed, older and seeking out real life. Some of the people repping TPA by this time just mysteriously put themselves into the crew. They were without any real affiliation, but they wanted to be part of something. Even today, I meet these TPA heads I've never even heard of, but that's what being a crew that has lasted for 33 years brings, the growing pains that occur when you take your eye off the ball.

Which other crews have you written with in your time?

Not too many - sometimes we would have a writer from some other crew join us, but since we had so many TPA members all over NYC, it was easy to find one of our own members that we could buddy up with on an expedition. One of our "little brother" crews was TKC (The Killer Crew) out of Greenpoint Brooklyn, a good bunch of guys all wanting to get up and rep hard.

Which other writers have you painted alongside in your time?

A ton… more than I can recall, as I'm sure you understand. But just to give a few shout-outs to the men that deserve them, I will mention these few I wrote alongside with:

• Flame 3 (RIP)
• Wise-3 (RIP)
• Caine-1 (RIP)
• 3MI (RIP)
• Speedy (RIP)
• Dillinger (RIP)
• Moss-1 (RIP)
• Kik (RIP)
• Filter (RIP)
• AMX (RIP)

…and many, many others who hopefully are enjoying life the way we are.

Do you still keep in touch with any of the people you used to write with back in the day?

A few - Let's see - there's Ton-1, he's been a good guy. There's my old partner, Demo, whom I chat with regularly. Occasionally I speak with Izzy and FDT-56. There's always some event, but I don't manage to get to attend many of those.

You managed to go "all-city" in New York for a duration of three years, what did a writer need to do to go "all-city"?

A writer had to knock down every borough - in a place called NYC… home to 11 million screaming people. Every division (IND, IRT, BMT as well as the buses, bridges, parks, etc) had to show your presence. Sounds easy, huh?

How did you manage to hit so many trains and buses to get your mark in enough places to become "all-city", how did you manage to retain the title for so long and which artists tried or succeeded to take over from you?

You were either a high school drop-out, (which is a fucked up place to be in life), some sort of delinquent, or essentially a wanna-be toy that was on the wrong track. Most were toys and wound up seeking out crime after realizing that graffiti-writing didn't provide the harder, criminal thrill they craved. They only felt rebellion against society but they eventually realized that graffiti didn't provide income. Those so-called "writers" (and some had good skills), were really thugs that used writing as a good cover. Vamping and vic'ing people and stores and thuggin' wasn't really the original idea of writing. Hell - it's counter-productive when you think about it. Why advertise yourself if you're into crime?!?!?

Guys like that are the ones that brought heat to writers who had a love from the heart for the art and conquest of metal monsters. Most real writers knew that in order to get by you went back to school or made something of yourself with a j-o-b. True writers are not typically criminal at all; most of us had some sort of trouble at home, so it was natural to go raise yourself in the street. Some of us made it, some didn't. We weren't all that way (criminal), but trust me, to bomb that much; you had to make the time somehow, and that meant time away from other important things like school and a more regular way of life.

As far as holding a "title" - OK… there really isn't any "title"; we (TPA) were just up the most, that's all. But that's only due to the dedication of a team, not just an individual. There are some guys that hold distinction for sure, I admit.

Look around any corner or any website and you will see some self-inflated egotist calling themselves a "king". Usually, it's self-appointed too. It's hard to get up anymore anyhow because it's so illegal and so difficult. My advice to the newbie is to become "king" in the working world and make some loot doing what you love. Besides, it's lonely at the top.

Do you have any good stories to tell from your days of bombing New Yorks transport system?

There's a lot. The best stuff usually came spontaneously. Something really fascinating to me was the discovery and exploration of the intense intricate underground where no one sane really ventures. You can read about and see some of it documented on this site about abandoned stations… check that out.

I read in another interview about how you used to "trade" space with other artists, could you explain a little about how this worked and what was involved?

You exchanged intelligence on well-kept secrets or coveted information relating to lay-ups, yards, stashes, escape routes, entry points, schedules, planned raids, etc. You sealed the deal with a mutual bombing session that same day or night after the intelligence was exchanged. It was an "even-Steven".

Was the "trading" of space a common thing for artists to do?

Hell no, it was too intimate.

The idea behind graffiti artists "getting up" and putting their mark everywhere, becoming well known, going "all-city" or becoming "king of the line" is an interesting one - I wanted to ask you if infamy within the scene is a frustrating thing sometimes because of the need to keep your identity secret due to the illegal aspect? At what point did you feel it was safe to stand up and say "I did that"?

I have noticed that some of the most "up" writers (and coincidentally, the most loved), are the guys that basically let the cans or brushes do tha talkin' instead of their mouths.

Modesty and humility is a noble virtue, man. Ya dig?

I have noticed that some of the most "up" writers (and coincidentally, the most loved), are the guys that basically let the cans or brushes do tha talkin' instead of their mouths.

Joey TPA

Have you ever had a run in with the law because of your graffiti writing?

You bet. Its par for course, anyone that's gotten up and tells you otherwise is full of bull… It's like saying you never fell down while riding a bike.

When you were busy hitting the trains, busses and other spots in the city did you ever have any idea how much the artwork you and your fellow writers were creating would catch on and how much of an impact it would have generations to come?

Not really. I don't even think that the folks who found success realized it at the time. The ones who saw it were the dealers, the entrepreneurs, the money-people; it was the art scene that found the writers" not quite so much the other way round. We were just kids having fun in our playground, in our own crazy way.

What are your feelings about the graffiti scene at present and the transitions in styles you must have seen since you began writing?

I expect that it gains more positive ground, but like the old saying goes… "you can take the kid outta the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto outta the kid". I always look forward to some finding a way out.

The one thing I don't like though is this form of acid-writing that burns and etches glass. I also don't like "scratchitti", they are both harmful and just plain bullshit. No colors and very ugly. I guess I'm getting "old" now. I like the pretty stuff.

What do you see as being the start of the graffiti scene? Did it all start with the likes of TAKI 183 and Julio 204?

That's a totally rhetorical question. It started a million years ago.

I know that most of your readers are too young to feel it because I see a lot of folks from my own generation not gettting it, but graffiti basically got it's start during WW-2. It started with political statements - and that my friend was in the early 60's.

By the way, let me add TopCat-126 (my personal favorite) and the recently re-discovered Cornbread to your reference of Taki and Julio because they too, were there at the so-called "beginning" of the scene as I know it.

What do you think of the term "graffiti"? In a recent interview I conducted with MICO he puts forward his view that the term "graffiti" is a racist and derogatory word given to the movement by the establishment and that the real name for the movement is in fact "writin'", what are your views on this?

Again, that's totally rhetorical. Aside from Mico's valid opinion, we all know what it is. We know that its something that started in the streets of NYC and Philly, two of the toughest place on earth. It was mostly started but not entirely "owned" by minority kids.

Why call the truth "racist"? The fact is that if you want to break it down, the majority of kids writing graffiti back then were primarily Afro-American or Latino but a huge portion (I would venture maybe 30% or more) were and are today in fact Caucasian.

So how can anyone call "graffiti" racist? Just realize that "racist" and "racial" are two completely different words with two very different meanings. We can define the racial breakdown (demographics) of who writes graffiti, but that is not in and of itself "racist".

What happens often is that some of the people who pull the race card are people who feel that they personally have been discriminated against or left out somehow. I have no personal problem with the term "graffiti", we as writers all used it for many years and still do. I also come from NYC, born and raised.

It's also important to have solutions and not just gripes.

Have you ever created artwork or had your artwork used for commercial purposes and if so have you ever put in any 'hidden messages'?

As a writer, no but as a business owner, yes, I have created and conceived. That's par for course.

No hidden messages, last I heard that was done mostly during the Spanish Inquisition when artists were flipping off the clergy…

I enjoyed it when Al Hirschfeld paid his daughter homage with all those little "Nina's" inside all his fine comics and artwork. He was a heavy at New Yorker Magazine. Check out Al Hirschfeld on Wikipedia.

You are the founder of a company called "Street Level Nine", could you tell us a little about why you started the company and what it is all about?

SL-9 was begun with the idea of providing a hi-quality product made in America with an American concept, but directed at the global audience. The SL-9 garments are hi-quality mid-priced t-shirts, beautifully edgy jackets, hats and hoodies. The Paradise Girls brand is about tank-tops (beaters) and t-shirts for the ladies.

• www.sl-9.com is an online store with exceptional prices for great shirts if you're in the U.S.
• If you are on the West Coast, (California) go to Pure G and check them out.
• I seriously encourage all Europeans to check out 3rd Rail Art.
• Depending on where you live in the U.K. there's also The Urban Shop, another great site.

Have you had your work displayed in many galleries and if so is there any one exhibition that stands out from the rest?

I am not a gallery artist.

What are your thoughts on graffiti being commonly found in both galleries and on the streets these days?

I love them both to certain limits. They are two different worlds. A potentially delicate transition only for those clever enough to be clever… he-he-he-he!

When you're young and don't give a damn, you may get wrapped up in vandalistic things. Writing on people's personal property like their houses, their stores, their vehicles, is fucked up… plain and simple.

Joey TPA

There seems to be a very fine line between those who see graffiti as art and those who see it as vandalism, what are your views on this?

Nice follow-up man, you seem to be clever! When you're young and don't give a damn, you may get wrapped up in vandalistic things. Writing on people's personal property like their houses, their stores, their vehicles, is fucked up… plain and simple.

I always thought it was wiser if the rebellion was intelligently directed against the government or the corporate machine, non-violently and intelligently.

As far as it being "art", well no matter where it's placed, some of it is very artistic and some of it is garbage, but that's up to the critics, the movers and shakers and the buying public I guess. It's all interpretive. All I know is if some kid wrote on my car, out come my two assistants - Mr. Smith and his cousin, Mr. Wesson.

Do you see yourself as an artist or a graffiti writer?

A g-writer baby!

Do you still practice graffiti writing today and if not do you ever feel the need to?

Are you saying I need practice? Hell yes, I absolutely still get the itch!

Do you still have any form of involvement in the graffiti scene?

Does the sound of "The Public Animals" ring a bell? Go to the TPA Productions myspace page and see what I mean.

What is your preferred medium for making marks with now and what was it back in the 70's?

Back then, my favorite tools for making "marks" were pinned-out Marvys (softer tips than Pilots), White Pentels and opaque inks made creamy with white ink. Today, I prefer to make my mark in society with money, brains and the mob (just kidding). Paintwise, a flat-black engine-primer or some Rusto Aluminum silver loaded with a Niagara or Jiffoam fat-cap trigger were the weapons of choice.

Do you have a favourite or most memorable piece of all time?

Anytime I made a whole car or something more on the serious side then it was a favorite and very memorable because it took more time, required more risk and was more rewarding. One of my faves though, was a certain handball court done at night. The wall was about 45' across and I used many cans. I had sandwiches, a boom box, beer and a lawnchair for my comfort. All that was missing was my bed, a fridge, the TV and a girlfriend. Demo was killing the other side of the wall a little more inconspicuously - he liked it a little darker. My side had some huge lights mounted high on poles, blazing down. Anyhow, we both noticed some suspicious people sort of sneaking up from one side of the park up by Hillside Avenue. We made it out through a hole in the fence and started weaving a huge circle around the block. They were cops. They checked out our walls and our set-up with flashlights while Demo and I were hiding across the street and up the hill in someone's front yard. The stalkers became the game. We played it cool and my guess is that after what seemed like 15 minutes of re-con, and another 15 minutes of us just cooling our heels, that these cops probably liked our work and incredibly, didn't even bother to confiscate our paint, or eat my sandwich! They left, and we returned to everything the same way we left it. We finished the job a little nervously. I always wanted to say thanks to those cops, whoever they were, for appreciating our set-up, for not throwing out my food which was hard enough to get, and for basically giving us a pass.

Which other artists work do you admire?

• I admire Demo personally for having been there from the beginning when it was born for us.
• I admire Tracy 168 for his doggedness from the very beginning to the present, through good times and bad times.
• I admire Ezo for his longevity.
• I admire Ton-1 for his loyalty.
• Tora
• Ezra
• Props
• Kelzo
• Ater
• KR-1
• Graffiti Pete
• Enso
• All international players

There are many more I admire and collect, but they are not "graffiti artists", they are (as you so aptly put it), simply artists.

Which other artists would you most like to work with or wish you had of worked with given the chance?

We will have to wait and see - life is still full of surprises. I can, will and do employ artists of all types now… but am always looking for better, suitable and different. As for the past, I don't look back on things like that, I only look forward.

What do you see as your greatest achievement to date?

Staying alive and enjoying this thing called life as best as I can. Learning to be a better individual and knowing I will leave a seed planted for the good. I love meeting others that are making things happen instead being people who watch things go by. That's just part of what makes it great.

What kind of music are you into?

Nearly everything as long as it's not repetitive, violent or mundane. If you want to know what I listen to in my car, it could be a group I'm helping promote to anything at all, really.

Just depends on the mood, man, ya dig? I love it all. I have friends who rap and friends who go metal, yet others who are soft and introspective. Cool thing is, at that level of success, they all have that secret understanding of co-support. There's no limit.

What is the last album you brought?

I think it was something by Moby.

What are you working on currently and what plans do you have for the future?

Working on this interview for you has been a freaking labor of love for one, lemme tell ya!

At the moment I'm wrapped up in the world of business, namely fashion, as well as industry and natural resources.

I would entertain the thought of living part-time in Malibu, Manhattan Beach, or Hermosa. Santa Monica is sweet too. Meet me there man, and let's chill out and do the right thing, cool?

There's also a cool blog at www.sl-9.blogspot.com… check it out.

Anything else you would like to add?

Yeah… I think you're mad cool.

• Bebo
• Del.ic.ious
• Digg
• Diigo
• Facebook
• Reddit
• Stumbleupon
• Twitter